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 Posted: Thu, Oct 7 2010, 5:04 pm EDT Post subject: Christie just destroyed the State |
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Well Christie is officially insane. (And I say that having voted for the guy.) He’s now canceled the NJ-NYC tunnel expansion. Clearly the guy doesn’t have to commute to the City like millions of us citizens do. For those spared that privilege, the facts are we’re stuck with a 1 track tunnel in each direction that is already at the limits of its capacity – they can’t add more trains, they can’t even add more cars to the trains. They have already made the trains 2 stories and can’t go higher. Yet the rush-hours trains are already standing room only, all the way from Princeton on many days, as it stands now. We were already looking at 7 more years of pure hell for a commute before he committed State-suicide.
If he did he would understand that there should be no single other priority in the state higher than this project. We should close every park, furlough staff, freeze salaries, cut services, privatize the Turnpike and any other object of value, whatever, before we kill this project which is basically critical to New Jersey remaining viable as an economy. Instead we need to add the disclaimer to all our “Welcome to New Jersey” signs that says: “Sorry, we’re all booked up, please move along…”
Now I know supporter swill chime in about not having a choice and budget overages and the state of the State's finances but the bottom line is I still see people employed in Trenton, I still see parks open, etc. since none of that is as important as this tunnel, it was insane... |
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| Posted: Thu, Oct 7 2010, 7:32 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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Maybe increase the ticket price to help pay for this project? Majority of the state residents don't travel to NYC daily.
This is not a federal funded project, right? |
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| Posted: Thu, Oct 7 2010, 8:03 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Yeah, it would be insane, which is why I don't really believe his goal is to stop the project. I think he is trying to negotiate better terms. At least I hope so, or else the conservative joke of, "will the last person leaving New Jersey please turn out the lights...." may actually come true. |
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| Posted: Thu, Oct 7 2010, 9:37 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Guest wrote: | Maybe increase the ticket price to help pay for this project? Majority of the state residents don't travel to NYC daily.
This is not a federal funded project, right? |
Actually, 1/3rd is federally funded (keep in mind federally-backed Amtrak shares the current maxed out tunnels and needs this relief capacity too), 1/3rd is funded by New York state (which is in worse budget trouble than NJ but ponied up) and 1/3rd is NJ funded.
As for what's fair in terms of who funds it, consider a few things:
1) This is a project of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, a combined agency that has also funded and run car tunnels, the various airports in the region, the ports, the World Trade Center, PATH (which only benefits downtown commuters, far fewer than NJT), etc. So the NJ taxes of us train commuters have already contributed to projects like the World Trade Center, JFK, etc. that benefit substantially fewer NJ residents than the train tunnels to NYC;
2) In this area we are serviced by the Northeast Corridor line. Ours is far and away the most crowded line in the entire NJT system and from Princeton Jct we pay some of the highest fees (almost $15 one-way, every day, twice a day). Our line of the train is the only profitable part of the entire system – we subsidize the riders of all the other lines. The line along Bergen County by comparison operates at 30% occupancy while rush-hour on our line is often standing room only. Yet much of the money collected from NEC commuters has been used by the state to fund construction and ongoing operation of new stations that exclusively benefit the less traveled lines that can’t self-support themselves. So our ticket prices are paying for 7 different stations in one greater Township where we are serviced by one, even though our 1 has more users than the seven stations combined. Then let’s talk about the new Secaucus Transfer Station that is severely under-utilized and is, again, only useful to people on those other lines that already couldn’t pay for their own level of usage. So, frankly, we’re already overdue for some of our ticket prices to actually go to projects that benefit the most users and not politically-motivated projects that benefit those communities with disproportionate political influence. Besides, this tunnel benefits all the lines.
3) NJ residents who work in NY contribute billions a year in taxes to NJ. Almost none of the things the state spends money on benefits all taxpayers. But you would be hard pressed to find a larger group of taxpayers in this state that directly benefit from a single project as much as we would from this one. If your criteria is that only those that directly benefit should pay for any given expense then that undermines basically everything the state expenses. And on balance I guarantee you that if the NY commuters only had to contribute to the state for projects they benefit from they would save so much on taxes that we could 100% fund this and many other tunnels and still come out ahead.
Not to mention that the studies show not adding tunnels to deal with the train capacity will have a ripple effect on everyone and cost the state billions of dollars in lost productivity, taxes, jobs, etc. and make the auto tunnels and bridges, turnpike and other major roads and highways a nightmare for everyone. The fact is why should be grateful NJ was only covering a 1/3rd of the cost given how critical it was to us regardless of how much of the bill we had to foot.
Assuming it’s not just some play on Christie’s part for deal leverage that is doesn’t let play out to long (which one can only hope), it may go down in history as the single worst decision by a NJ governor since Ben Franklin’s son declared himself a Loyalist. |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 6:58 am EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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All reports were that this was starting to become like the Big Dig in Boston. So I think it's fair for the Governor to want to put a hold on it until there is some level of cost control in place. The funny thing is that the Democrats have been screaming about how this was a project spiraling out of control and the Governor listened to them.
I agree that the tunnel is necessary, but make sure it's done right. |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 10:00 am EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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Hopefully he will negotiate better terms or get some kind of cap on NJ's commitment money wise.
As far as standing room only on the trains. I commute every day during rush hour and rarely see people standing. From time to time it has happened but in the 5 years I have taken the train I have been without a seat 3 times. Also, what does that have to do with the tunnel? I don't anticipate additional trains, just less traffic in and out of the city and hopefully a quicker commute come 2052. |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 10:22 am EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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This is what I'm saying!
It doesn't really matter who you vote for.
You'll get screwed somehow by whoever is in office.
They're only out for thier buddies and themselves.
This country was bought and paid for years ago by the moneyed interests. The politicians are just the expendable pawns in the scheme. They all suck up to thier Lords & Masters who hold the pursestrings.
Voting........not voting........doesn't make one whit of difference in the big picture.
The only time politicians get anything done is when you hold their feet to the fire and threaten their cushy jobs!
Do you get it now? |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 11:01 am EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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I am not as angry or suspicious as you are. I think you are right to question the political motives of our governors. For as long as I can remember (I only go back to Florio) the New Jersey governor has had his/her sites set on national office. That really colors their decision making. I am not a Christie lover or hater. I am kind of amazed that so many people seem to LOVE or HATE this governor. Truthfully up until this decision he has done little of long term consequence. This move and how he does or does not resolve the pension system is how he will ultimately be judged.
I do wish he would spend more time working on state issues than campaigning for out of state candidates, but again this is what all our governors do because they dream of higher office. |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 11:09 am EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Guest wrote: | Hopefully he will negotiate better terms or get some kind of cap on NJ's commitment money wise.
As far as standing room only on the trains. I commute every day during rush hour and rarely see people standing. From time to time it has happened but in the 5 years I have taken the train I have been without a seat 3 times. Also, what does that have to do with the tunnel? I don't anticipate additional trains, just less traffic in and out of the city and hopefully a quicker commute come 2052. |
I don't know what "rush hour" you take but I end up standing at least once a week and see people stuck standing about half the time. Even when they don't it is a close thing. The problem is the train is already 70% full before it even reaches Princeton Jct. Coming back in the evening isn't as bad for some reason, but going is a pain. If you aren't lucky to be one of the first through the door you are guaranteed a midle seat on a 3 person bench (for the trains that still have them) best case.
What are you smoking when you say no additional trains and less traffic in/out of the city? |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 1:18 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Guest wrote: | | Guest wrote: | Hopefully he will negotiate better terms or get some kind of cap on NJ's commitment money wise.
As far as standing room only on the trains. I commute every day during rush hour and rarely see people standing. From time to time it has happened but in the 5 years I have taken the train I have been without a seat 3 times. Also, what does that have to do with the tunnel? I don't anticipate additional trains, just less traffic in and out of the city and hopefully a quicker commute come 2052. |
I don't know what "rush hour" you take but I end up standing at least once a week and see people stuck standing about half the time. Even when they don't it is a close thing. The problem is the train is already 70% full before it even reaches Princeton Jct. Coming back in the evening isn't as bad for some reason, but going is a pain. If you aren't lucky to be one of the first through the door you are guaranteed a midle seat on a 3 person bench (for the trains that still have them) best case.
What are you smoking when you say no additional trains and less traffic in/out of the city? |
Last I checked the 6:14am & 6:36am are rush hour trains. They are double deckers and getting a seat hasn't been a problem even if your the last one in. Coming home the 5:01, 5:15, 5:30, 6:00pm are all double deckers with no seat issues if you get on in NY. If your getting on in Newark it can be an issue at times but I haven't noticed anyone standing lately.
Is the tunnel plan for more trains or better traffic flow into Penn Station? With double the capacity (4 lanes instead of the current 2) into Penn I'm going to go way out on a limb and say you will have less traffic into & out of Penn thus reducing your overall commute. I could be wrong since I have been smoking. |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 1:54 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Guest wrote: | | Guest wrote: | | Guest wrote: | Hopefully he will negotiate better terms or get some kind of cap on NJ's commitment money wise.
As far as standing room only on the trains. I commute every day during rush hour and rarely see people standing. From time to time it has happened but in the 5 years I have taken the train I have been without a seat 3 times. Also, what does that have to do with the tunnel? I don't anticipate additional trains, just less traffic in and out of the city and hopefully a quicker commute come 2052. |
I don't know what "rush hour" you take but I end up standing at least once a week and see people stuck standing about half the time. Even when they don't it is a close thing. The problem is the train is already 70% full before it even reaches Princeton Jct. Coming back in the evening isn't as bad for some reason, but going is a pain. If you aren't lucky to be one of the first through the door you are guaranteed a midle seat on a 3 person bench (for the trains that still have them) best case.
What are you smoking when you say no additional trains and less traffic in/out of the city? |
Is the tunnel plan for more trains or better traffic flow into Penn Station? With double the capacity (4 lanes instead of the current 2) into Penn I'm going to go way out on a limb and say you will have less traffic into & out of Penn thus reducing your overall commute. I could be wrong since I have been smoking. |
Your new statement is the opposite of what you wrote previously.
The new plan is not just about improving "traffic" slow with the same amount of trains and people. It is definitely intended as a long term solution for traffic growth and more overall capacity. Of course it should improve Penn Station, at least for a while, but I'm not sure why you think there will be no more volume going into NWY overall between the tunnels. |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 2:22 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Guest wrote: | | Guest wrote: | | Guest wrote: | | Guest wrote: | Hopefully he will negotiate better terms or get some kind of cap on NJ's commitment money wise.
As far as standing room only on the trains. I commute every day during rush hour and rarely see people standing. From time to time it has happened but in the 5 years I have taken the train I have been without a seat 3 times. Also, what does that have to do with the tunnel? I don't anticipate additional trains, just less traffic in and out of the city and hopefully a quicker commute come 2052. |
I don't know what "rush hour" you take but I end up standing at least once a week and see people stuck standing about half the time. Even when they don't it is a close thing. The problem is the train is already 70% full before it even reaches Princeton Jct. Coming back in the evening isn't as bad for some reason, but going is a pain. If you aren't lucky to be one of the first through the door you are guaranteed a midle seat on a 3 person bench (for the trains that still have them) best case.
What are you smoking when you say no additional trains and less traffic in/out of the city? |
Is the tunnel plan for more trains or better traffic flow into Penn Station? With double the capacity (4 lanes instead of the current 2) into Penn I'm going to go way out on a limb and say you will have less traffic into & out of Penn thus reducing your overall commute. I could be wrong since I have been smoking. |
Your new statement is the opposite of what you wrote previously.
The new plan is not just about improving "traffic" slow with the same amount of trains and people. It is definitely intended as a long term solution for traffic growth and more overall capacity. Of course it should improve Penn Station, at least for a while, but I'm not sure why you think there will be no more volume going into NWY overall between the tunnels. |
Your right, my statement does appear to be the opposite of my original post. I said I don't anticipate additional trains than added the question if the plan is for more trains (in general) or better traffic flow. I haven't read the proposal so I don't know.
What I don't anticipate (from my 1st post) is more trains coming out or into Princeton anytime soon, they just cut service. I'd be happy with a reduced commuting time. |
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| Posted: Fri, Oct 8 2010, 2:47 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| They will have additional trains eventually when the add tunnels. During the peak hours the tunnels are operating at maximum capacity so it is the driving force limiting additional peak hour trains. Between now and then the only trick left up their sleave is to continue to invest in more double decker trains until they have enough for all the peak hour services. Other than that, the only other thing they could do would be to shift service from other regions to us, having less trains to underserved areas and giving those tunnel slots to us. But that is political dynamite and will never happen. |
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| Posted: Sat, Oct 9 2010, 12:30 am EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Flying cars would solve this problem! |
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| Posted: Sat, Oct 9 2010, 8:10 am EDT Post subject: Re: Christie just destroyed the State |
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| Guest wrote: | | Flying cars would solve this problem! |
In the already most congested airspace in the country. Sounds like a winner. |
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