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[quote="Guest"]When you put the "right of the people to bear arms" in historical context, it is amusingly pragmatic. Our young nation had just fought a war we could not afford. By far, the largest financial obligations of the federal government at the time were fielding and equipping an army when necessary. As a practical matter, the government granted its people the right to keep and bear arms with the understanding that those who could afford to bear arms would serve in the militia as necessary. In other words, our government simply found a slick way to pass the buck for its primary financial responsibility back to the people.[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Oct 29 2010, 3:28 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis</a></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 7:22 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">LOL. Yeah, gunowners.org sounds like a very objective source...</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Didn't say it was. Said it was another side of the story.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Mon, Oct 25 2010, 5:04 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">It's all more complicated than it seems. <br /> <br />This nation's obsession with guns goes back a few hundred years. After the Revolutionary War, for example, many husbands returned home with their guns. Many suffered after mental anguish after returning home and many were killed by random homicides and suicides. <br /> <br />This of course hold true for many wars when soldiers returned home. <br /> <br />The papers back then and news today were writing sensationalistic headlines to sell. News are still filled with murders and suicides....how many times a day do the Newschannels run a commercial who got shot where in NYC of Philly....you do not see this to that extend in other countries. We are a society obsessed with guns. <br /> <br />We are also a society with great inequality of wealth, which is not see in many European countries and Canada, which adds to friction and at times violence. <br /> <br />I don't believe the problem is just rooted in gun laws....but it would make sense to ban some crazy automatic weapons, and it would make sense to have a very strict enforcement of licensing. Nobody takes away your right.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Oct 24 2010, 7:17 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">LOL. Yeah, gunowners.org sounds like a very objective source...</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Oct 24 2010, 4:48 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">3: Gun Control Has Reduced The Crime Rates In Other Countries <br />Myth #3: Gun Control Has Reduced The Crime Rates In Other Countries <br /> <br /> <br />1. Fact: The murder rates in many nations (such as England) were ALREADY LOW BEFORE enacting gun control. Thus, their restrictive laws cannot be credited with lowering their crime rates.1 <br />2. Fact: Gun control has done nothing to keep crime rates from rising in many of the nations that have imposed severe firearms restrictions. <br />* Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper discovered in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws banning most guns and making it a crime to use a gun defensively, armed robberies rose by 51%, unarmed robberies by 37%, assaults by 24% and kidnappings by 43%. While murders fell by 3%, manslaughter rose by 16%."2 <br />* Canada: After enacting stringent gun control laws in 1991 and 1995, Canada has not made its citizens any safer. "The contrast between the criminal violence rates in the United States and in Canada is dramatic," says Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser in 2003. "Over the past decade, the rate of violent crime in Canada has increased while in the United States the violent crime rate has plummeted." 3 <br />* England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.4 <br />* Japan: One newspaper headline says it all: Police say "Crime rising in Japan, while arrests at record low."5 <br />3. Fact: British citizens are now more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States: <br />* In 1998, a study conducted jointly by statisticians from the U.S. Department of Justice and the University of Cambridge in England found that most crime is now worse in England than in the United States. <br />* "You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the United States," stated the Reuters news agency in summarizing the study. "The rate of robbery is now 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double America's."6 The murder rate in the United States is reportedly higher than in England, but according to the DOJ study, "the difference between the [murder rates in the] two countries has narrowed over the past 16 years."7 <br />* The United Nations confirmed these results in 2000 when it reported that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States.8 <br /> <br /><a href="http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm" target="_blank">http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm</a> <br /> <br />There's always another side of the story.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Oct 24 2010, 1:02 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Sorry, but I don't get the point of a Hitler quote in this discussion at all.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Oct 24 2010, 12:16 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens. Introduced and with a new preface by H. R. Trevor-Roper. The original German papers were known as Bormann-Vermerke.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Oct 22 2010, 11:08 am EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">But, by the slippery slope argument, either EVERONE MUST own a gun or NOBODY CAN own one. It's an all or nothing propostion. <br />You're fairly safe if prudent, responsible, intelligent people only own guns. Or, if EVERYONE has them. Especially, if they are concealed. If only some of the people own them, how do you know if they are the "right" people? <br />Its a VERY sticky problem. <br />Its just like the nuclear weapon issue. Is the US responsible enough to own them? <br />We are the only nation, so far, to have used them. Who are we to say who may join the nuclear club or not, and if they want to, should we or even, could we stop them? <br />Weapons of any kind are a VERY thorny issue. <br />I'm sure that the framers never would've dreamed about nuclear weapons in their day. <br />I think that you're right about the standing army. <br />The founders, most of them anyway, would've dismissed the idea. <br />But, we are a very militaristic country, so.............................. <br />Slippery slopes are everywhere, waiting to get us.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Oct 22 2010, 10:05 am EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">My main beef is that the framers didn't expect every Tom, Dick & Harry to be toting concealed weapons onto subways for their morning commute. They couldn't be thinking that far ahead. In their day, a gun was a muzzle-loaded, smooth bore, single-shot musket. Primarily, a gun used for hunting game and feeding families. Occasionaly used to fight off Indian raids and other squabbles, but, used more or less with common sense. <br />I don't think that the founders wanted their names co-opted to be used by the NRA and their bought-and-paid-for political cronies. <br />It's a good marketing tactic, but, it is historically innacurate. Do you believe that any of our founding fathers walked around with a flintlock pistol concealed in their waistcoat or their longstocking? I don't think so. I LOVE when people trot out the "founding fathers" to try and make a point, but, do so without any historical knowledge aforethought. <br />I can see guns being used to hunt with or maybe, perhaps, for protection if you live in a bad neighborhood, but they should be very highly regulated. I just don't want to see any nutbag on the streetcorner getting their paws on these weapons of mass destruction. <br />If you're some country folk out in the sticks it probably doesn't matter all that much if you have a gun or two. But, we live in THE MOST highly urbanized area of the nation. NY city is less than an hour away and more people there live cheek-to-jowl more than anywhere else in North America. Guns in NY city may not be such a good idea. <br />So, when speaking of the founding fathers, you should focus on their intent. You have to see the world from their perspective. They were writing about their own time and place. Do you really think they could have forseen laser guns with deathrays? In the near future, any citizen can walk into a Wal-Mart and buy one of these off the shelf ready to fire. Sure, I just made that up, but, you see my point. Just because a weapon CAN BE made and sold, doesn't mean that it should be. Does anyone really need an assault rifle for hunting? How sporting is that? Or do you just want to be one of those insane survivalists who want to be better armed than the local police? <br />All I'm saying is, don't throw common sense out the window. <br />Just because someone says that you can have something, don't be a spoiled child and stamp your feet and think that you deserve to have it.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Actually, if you really consider the context and intent of the founding fathers, we probably wouldn't have a standing army and most of us would own our own assault rifles as members of a well regulated militia. <br /> <br />That said, given how we evolved, I think most people agree that a well thought out policy regarding arms control is an important part of maintaining order in our society. I doubt the founding fathers envisioned people owning their own laser guided missles, for example, whereas they would have been psyched if private citizens brought their own cannons to defend DC in the War of 1812. <br /> <br />You may want to keep a few things in mind when you make your argument. <br /> <br />1. If you argue that the intent is to protect ourselves from the government, you are essentially justifying the need for private citizens to own comparable military equipment to the government. <br /> <br />2. There is a logical argument to be made that if you make guns illegal in some places, such as NYC, the only people who will have guns will be the criminals and the cops. <br /> <br />3. If you dismiss the slippery slope argument made by the gun lobby on this issue, it is hypocritical to invoke the slippery slope argument on other consitutional questions.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Oct 22 2010, 9:05 am EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>numbers wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Check the homicide rate in Great Brittain, and check the homicide rates in the U.S. states that allow concealed carry. You'll find the rate much higher over there. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /> <br />I just did that: <br />The homicide rate per 100000 in 2009: <br />United Kingdom: 1.28 <br />Germany : 0.86 <br /> <br />US: 5.0 <br />thereof states that allow concealed guns: <br />Florida: 5.5 <br />Indiana: 5.1 <br />Pennsylvania 5.0 <br /> <br />Sources: <a href="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2009/cius2009/" target="_blank" class="postlink">http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2009/cius2009/</a> <br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-un8-47" target="_blank" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-un8-47</a></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Right-wing nuts tend to be factually challenged! <br />They live in a faith-based world.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Oct 22 2010, 9:03 am EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">When you put the "right of the people to bear arms" in historical context, it is amusingly pragmatic. Our young nation had just fought a war we could not afford. By far, the largest financial obligations of the federal government at the time were fielding and equipping an army when necessary. As a practical matter, the government granted its people the right to keep and bear arms with the understanding that those who could afford to bear arms would serve in the militia as necessary. In other words, our government simply found a slick way to pass the buck for its primary financial responsibility back to the people.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />My main beef is that the framers didn't expect every Tom, Dick & Harry to be toting concealed weapons onto subways for their morning commute. They couldn't be thinking that far ahead. In their day, a gun was a muzzle-loaded, smooth bore, single-shot musket. Primarily, a gun used for hunting game and feeding families. Occasionaly used to fight off Indian raids and other squabbles, but, used more or less with common sense. <br />I don't think that the founders wanted their names co-opted to be used by the NRA and their bought-and-paid-for political cronies. <br />It's a good marketing tactic, but, it is historically innacurate. Do you believe that any of our founding fathers walked around with a flintlock pistol concealed in their waistcoat or their longstocking? I don't think so. I LOVE when people trot out the "founding fathers" to try and make a point, but, do so without any historical knowledge aforethought. <br />I can see guns being used to hunt with or maybe, perhaps, for protection if you live in a bad neighborhood, but they should be very highly regulated. I just don't want to see any nutbag on the streetcorner getting their paws on these weapons of mass destruction. <br />If you're some country folk out in the sticks it probably doesn't matter all that much if you have a gun or two. But, we live in THE MOST highly urbanized area of the nation. NY city is less than an hour away and more people there live cheek-to-jowl more than anywhere else in North America. Guns in NY city may not be such a good idea. <br />So, when speaking of the founding fathers, you should focus on their intent. You have to see the world from their perspective. They were writing about their own time and place. Do you really think they could have forseen laser guns with deathrays? In the near future, any citizen can walk into a Wal-Mart and buy one of these off the shelf ready to fire. Sure, I just made that up, but, you see my point. Just because a weapon CAN BE made and sold, doesn't mean that it should be. Does anyone really need an assault rifle for hunting? How sporting is that? Or do you just want to be one of those insane survivalists who want to be better armed than the local police? <br />All I'm saying is, don't throw common sense out the window. <br />Just because someone says that you can have something, don't be a spoiled child and stamp your feet and think that you deserve to have it.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Oct 21 2010, 6:12 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">When you put the "right of the people to bear arms" in historical context, it is amusingly pragmatic. Our young nation had just fought a war we could not afford. By far, the largest financial obligations of the federal government at the time were fielding and equipping an army when necessary. As a practical matter, the government granted its people the right to keep and bear arms with the understanding that those who could afford to bear arms would serve in the militia as necessary. In other words, our government simply found a slick way to pass the buck for its primary financial responsibility back to the people.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Oct 21 2010, 5:03 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>numbers wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Check the homicide rate in Great Brittain, and check the homicide rates in the U.S. states that allow concealed carry. You'll find the rate much higher over there. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /> <br />I just did that: <br />The homicide rate per 100000 in 2009: <br />United Kingdom: 1.28 <br />Germany : 0.86 <br /> <br />US: 5.0 <br />thereof states that allow concealed guns: <br />Florida: 5.5 <br />Indiana: 5.1 <br />Pennsylvania 5.0 <br /> <br />Sources: <a href="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2009/cius2009/" target="_blank" class="postlink">http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2009/cius2009/</a> <br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-un8-47" target="_blank" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-un8-47</a></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Snap! <br /> <br />Nothing like showing someone is an idiot by contradicting them while doing exactly what they say. They probably never checked themselves, just heard that sound bite on some "news" show and believed it without question for themselves...</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>numbers</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Oct 21 2010, 4:22 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Check the homicide rate in Great Brittain, and check the homicide rates in the U.S. states that allow concealed carry. You'll find the rate much higher over there. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /> <br />I just did that: <br />The homicide rate per 100000 in 2009: <br />United Kingdom: 1.28 <br />Germany : 0.86 <br /> <br />US: 5.0 <br />thereof states that allow concealed guns: <br />Florida: 5.5 <br />Indiana: 5.1 <br />Pennsylvania 5.0 <br /> <br />Sources: <a href="http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2009/cius2009/" target="_blank" class="postlink">http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2009/cius2009/</a> <br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-un8-47" target="_blank" class="postlink">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#cite_note-un8-47</a></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Oct 21 2010, 2:43 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">OY VEY, what an asswipe!</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Oct 21 2010, 2:41 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: guns</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />I believe that the original discussion was about the Constitution, not guns. <br /> </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />Actually, the conversation was about religion and the constitution. You started ranting about guns, so I started a new thread. <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Somehow, the argument got turned around and morphed into something else. </td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />That would be a result of your wild assumptions, a by-product of your 2 dimensional world view. Somehow you assumed that anyone who is not opposed to a "moment of silence" is a gun-crazy religious fundamentalist. In indsight, perhaps you'll agree that's a bit of a stretch? <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />The right-wing has a propensity to cherry-pick which amendments they want to obey and which ones they want OTHERS to obey. <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />And vice versa. Neither side gets to have it both ways. You can capitalize "well organized militia" in your posts if you want, but then don't insist everyone must "read between the lines" when it comes to religion. <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Somebody put a spin on it and it got all turned around.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br />On this we agree, aside from the identification of "somebody". <br /> <br />Must be that rascal "guest", again. <br /> <br />Have a good day, Scooter.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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