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[quote="cranb09"]death panels, Obama a racist, blah blah blah blah[/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>publius</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Dec 3 2009, 10:23 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">seriously? And what did the left do to Joe Lieberman, who was a senator and former VP candidate? They ran him through the mud.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Joe Lieberman? <br />The Senator from Aetna?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Dec 3 2009, 3:42 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Okay, we all get it. You're a Democrat and are lambasting the Republican party. It has a lot to be held accountable for. I don't see one post arguing it. <br /> <br />The Democrats are also just as bad. So WHO CARES?</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />First of all, who is "lambasting" the Republican Party? They cut-and-pasted an interview with a prominant Republican. That's it. <br /> <br />Second, this is all in response to someone who specifically asked several posts up to see back-up to the claim that the GOP sometimes discredited conservatives if they didn't walk the party line, so it seems like that poster asked for the topic to be covered. <br /> <br />Third, this forum posts political topics critical of Democrats and Obama all the time. Why is it suddenly, "who cares" once it is about the Republican Party?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>cranb09</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Dec 3 2009, 2:55 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Reacting to prominent conservative blogger Charles Johnson's announcement that he would not follow the right wing off a cliff, Andrew Sullivan is offering his own reasons for parting with the movement. <br /> <br />Johnson, who blogs at Little Green Footballs, wrote on Monday that fanatic politicians, racism, sexism, anti-Islamism, hate speech, conspiracy theories and other troubling trends on the right wing have led him to make a formal break. <br /> <br />"The American right wing has gone off the rails, into the bushes, and off the cliff," he concluded. "I won't be going over the cliff with them." <br /> <br />Andrew Sullivan, though not as consistent a conservative as Johnson, felt compelled to emphasize his own separation from the right wing. Among other things, he writes: <br /> <br />I cannot support a movement that holds that purely religious doctrine should govern civil political decisions and that uses the sacredness of religious faith for the pursuit of worldly power. <br /> <br />I cannot support a movement that is deeply homophobic, cynically deploys fear of homosexuals to win votes, and gives off such a racist vibe that its share of the minority vote remains pitiful. <br /> <br />I cannot support a movement which has no real respect for the institutions of government and is prepared to use any tactic and any means to fight political warfare rather than conduct a political conversation.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Dec 3 2009, 2:22 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Okay, we all get it. You're a Democrat and are lambasting the Republican party. It has a lot to be held accountable for. I don't see one post arguing it. <br /> <br />The Democrats are also just as bad. So WHO CARES?</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>cranb09</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Dec 3 2009, 1:34 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Former House Majority Leader Richard Armey, R-Texas, on "Face the Nation," November 29, 2009. (CBS) <br />(CBS) Former Majority Leader Dick Armey said that the so-called Republican 10 Commandments, or principles, which members of the Republican National Committee introduced this week to keep their candidates in line with party ideals, is "not a litmus test." <br /> <br />Republican candidates wishing to receive fundraising and campaign support from the RNC would have to agree with at least 8 of 10 party positions, according to a resolution first reported by The New York Times. The list is to be considered at the Republicans' winter meeting. <br /> <br />Some have dubbed it a "purity test," with warnings that it might increase the schisms within the party. <br /> <br />"It's not a litmus test," Army declared on CBS' "Face the Nation" Sunday. <br /> <br />"Secondly, it is being offered for consideration in the party. And I think, thirdly, it is seven out of the ten. But if you read the list, at least five of the ten are right at the center stage... centerpost of the big ten of American politics today." <br /> <br />Army said if a candidate wanted the support of the GOP, it was "very reasonable" to expect they "demonstrate some allegiance to the primary positions taken by the party. That's not a litmus test. That's just if you want us to give you our money, our support, our troops in the field, our endorsements, then demonstrate that you're someone like us," he said. <br /> <br />Dede Scozzafava, a moderate Republican and former Congressional candidate in New York's 23rd district (who dropped out of the race after some Republicans backed a Conservative Party candidate instead), said she would have been able to agree with seven of the 10 RNC principles in the resolution - suggesting she could have retained GOP support. <br /> <br />She argued that the reason a Democrat ultimately won her district (where no Democrat had won in over a century) was because the predecessor was a moderate Republican. "Some of the positions that I got criticized for taking were positions that [John McHugh, the Republican who vacated the seat] already had." <br /> <br />Armey, however, disagreed: "The Republicans lost that race when they nominated Dede," he said. "My activists on the ground contacted me and said that. The Conservative Party stayed out of the race until they saw that, despite the fact that she has a full and enthusiastic and generous support of the Republican Party, she was losing the race." <br /> <br />He characterized her support in the election as "clearly falling, dropping like a brick, before the Conservative candidate got in the race. So the fact of the matter was even the Democrat was running against her as a big spender. She was a bad fit for that race. Had there been an electoral primary process she wouldn't have won the primary," he added. <br /> <br />He also said that Scozzafava's subsequent endorsement of the Democratic candidate in the race (Bill Owens, who ultimately won), rather than the Conservative Party's Doug Hoffman, would make it very difficult for her to run as a Republican again. <br /> <br />Smith asked whether moderate has become a "dirty word" for the Republican Party. <br /> <br />"No, I don't believe it is," GOP strategist Ed Gillespie said. "I think that we can be a party that gets the majority, 218 seats in the House, that has some folks in New England, California, other places who may not agree with leader Armey or me on everything. But we have an agenda where we're cutting taxes, not raising them. We're giving people power, not taking it away." <br /> <br />In spite of concern among Republican moderates that the primary process - where more conservative constituents may support more conservative candidates, who were more likely to lose a general election - would hurt the party, Gillespie saw it as a positive. <br /> <br />"Look, we have a lot of internal discussion in the party right now," he said. "That's a healthy thing. The fact is because there's a sense of opportunity in the Republican Party that we can win House seats and Senate seats, we have vigorous primaries going on - that is the right problem to have. <br /> <br />"I think a vigorous debate over these things is healthy, but I also think as a party we need to be careful to make sure that we don't constrain our ability to win back the majority," he added. <br /> <br />Armey also promoted the primary process, using Scozzafava as an example of how not to put forward a candidate. "She was a bad fit for that race," he said. "Had there been an electoral primary process, she wouldn't have won the primary. She wouldn't have been the candidate. And the Republican would win the race." <br /> <br />Scozzafava, however, said she did not believe she was too moderate to win, and laid blame for her departure on the more conservative activists of the party. <br /> <br />"To Mr. Armey's point I was up by seven percentage points mid-October," she said, before the Club for Growth and other interests in Washington "flooded the market, distorted my record, and [it] was very difficult to counter that. <br /> <br />"I think it was very difficult for leadership at the RNC not to cave in to the pressures that they were receiving from the right," she said.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Dec 3 2009, 8:10 am EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Would love to see your specific examples of the GOP trying to discredit a conservative or Republican who has criticized a "far-righter." <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />After the recent election the current head of the Republican Party specifically stated that they would be creating a "test" of where elected party members stand on a series of issues and if they don't agree on a certain percentage of them they will be targeted for primary challenges by their own party. This was right after Palin and others supported a third party candidate against the official Republican in a New York race because the official Republican candidate wasn't "conservative enough." Steele originally condemned supported the Republican candidate but later came out with this test after the behind the scenes powers in the party read him the riot act. Sen L. Graham, a long standing Republican, was just censored by the Republican party of his state, which is now threatening to endorse another candidate the next time his seat is up for re-election because they believe he is not acting "conservative" enough. There are many, many more examples. Right now if you are not "conservative enough" the Republican party wants to weed you out of public office. I'm sure they are more forgiving of simple Republican voters because they want the votes. Just not of anyone in a public position.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />And Dean did the same exact thing with a witch hunt in his own party after Bush beat Kerry. It is politics, not party. The chairs of both parties go to the extreme. The Republicans go right and Democrats now go to progressive which is as far to left as the far righters are to the right. <br /> <br />In fact, just look at our own state politics to see how the Democrats instill fear. Look at Linda being so afraid of Roberts and being thrown out of the main stream party that she felt she could not vote no on COAH.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed, Dec 2 2009, 11:09 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote"> <br />Would love to see your specific examples of the GOP trying to discredit a conservative or Republican who has criticized a "far-righter." <br /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />After the recent election the current head of the Republican Party specifically stated that they would be creating a "test" of where elected party members stand on a series of issues and if they don't agree on a certain percentage of them they will be targeted for primary challenges by their own party. This was right after Palin and others supported a third party candidate against the official Republican in a New York race because the official Republican candidate wasn't "conservative enough." Steele originally condemned supported the Republican candidate but later came out with this test after the behind the scenes powers in the party read him the riot act. Sen L. Graham, a long standing Republican, was just censored by the Republican party of his state, which is now threatening to endorse another candidate the next time his seat is up for re-election because they believe he is not acting "conservative" enough. There are many, many more examples. Right now if you are not "conservative enough" the Republican party wants to weed you out of public office. I'm sure they are more forgiving of simple Republican voters because they want the votes. Just not of anyone in a public position.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed, Dec 2 2009, 10:35 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">He will not be Senator for much longer.....</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Which is a shame. I like him and think he uses common sense most of the time. <br /> <br /></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Quote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">And the GOP's response will be the same as it is for any conservative or Republican who dares to criticize the far righter these days -- to try and discredit this person and claim they were never consevrative to begin with and don't know what they are talking about. There is no room for desent.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Would love to see your specific examples of the GOP trying to discredit a conservative or Republican who has criticized a "far-righter." <br /> <br />I think there is plenty of room in both parties for dissent.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Wed, Dec 2 2009, 5:42 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">seriously? And what did the left do to Joe Lieberman, who was a senator and former VP candidate? They ran him through the mud.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />He will not be Senator for much longer.....</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue, Dec 1 2009, 6:20 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">seriously? And what did the left do to Joe Lieberman, who was a senator and former VP candidate? They ran him through the mud.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue, Dec 1 2009, 5:55 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>cranb09 wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs, a conservative-leaning political blog, officially announced his break with the right in a post on Monday evening. Johnson is co-founder of Pajamas Media, and Little Green Footballs has been named one of the top 100 most popular blogs. <br /> <br />Succinctly titled "Why I Parted Ways With The Right," Johnson's post argues against the fanaticism of politicians like Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Pat Buchanan as well as the conservative blogosphere ("Hatred for President Obama that goes far beyond simply criticizing his policies, into racism, hate speech, and bizarre conspiracy theories (see: witch doctor pictures, tea parties, Birthers, Michelle Malkin, Fox News, World Net Daily, Newsmax, and every other right wing source)"). He also cites the "anti-Islamic bigotry that goes far beyond simply criticizing radical Islam, into support for fascism, violence, and genocide." He concludes: <br /> <br />The American right wing has gone off the rails, into the bushes, and off the cliff. <br /> <br />I won't be going over the cliff with them.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />And the GOP's response will be the same as it is for any conservative or Republican who dares to criticize the far righter these days -- to try and discredit this person and claim they were never consevrative to begin with and don't know what they are talking about. There is no room for desent.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>cranb09</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue, Dec 1 2009, 3:27 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs, a conservative-leaning political blog, officially announced his break with the right in a post on Monday evening. Johnson is co-founder of Pajamas Media, and Little Green Footballs has been named one of the top 100 most popular blogs. <br /> <br />Succinctly titled "Why I Parted Ways With The Right," Johnson's post argues against the fanaticism of politicians like Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Pat Buchanan as well as the conservative blogosphere ("Hatred for President Obama that goes far beyond simply criticizing his policies, into racism, hate speech, and bizarre conspiracy theories (see: witch doctor pictures, tea parties, Birthers, Michelle Malkin, Fox News, World Net Daily, Newsmax, and every other right wing source)"). He also cites the "anti-Islamic bigotry that goes far beyond simply criticizing radical Islam, into support for fascism, violence, and genocide." He concludes: <br /> <br />The American right wing has gone off the rails, into the bushes, and off the cliff. <br /> <br />I won't be going over the cliff with them.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue, Dec 1 2009, 1:48 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">VAT would be a NEW TAX in this context. The VAT is fine if it replaces something like an income tax. However, adding VAT creates a new tax on top of the state sales tax and on top of the income taxes. <br /> <br />All one needs to have is a basic understanding of ecomomics to understand that new taxation does not create positive or neutral implications on GDP or Job Growth. If you make X adding VAT increases the cost of the goods you need. Without a reduction in state sales tax or income tax your income of X has reduced purchasing power. If X can no longer buy A, B, C goods, but only A and B. That means that there is overall less purchasing occurring. In turn that affects the businesses who either have to lower prices or reduce supply. In either scenario, there is an effect on the job market and on the tax revenue since VAT is a consumer driven tax. <br /> <br />There are numerous articles on VAT implications. This thread is not a discussion about VAT in general or in lieu. It was a discussion about the VAT on top of our already existing taxation schemes. <br /> <br />The arguement in this thread is all over the place. First, people claiming that VAT is not in discussion because it was RIGHT WING. Now, it is that VAT is fine.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />If you read the newsmax and examiner article, they specifically try to link value added taxes with low european growth rates. I am surmising they do this because they feel the cost argument alone is not enough. These articles were followed by a poster warning of the evils of VAT's. My point was you can make the cost argument, but don't demonize VAT's. The reason the thread is all over the place is because the newsmax and examiner articles are all over the place. Surely, you can find better reasoned arguments against health care plans.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue, Dec 1 2009, 1:35 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">VAT would be a NEW TAX in this context. The VAT is fine if it replaces something like an income tax. However, adding VAT creates a new tax on top of the state sales tax and on top of the income taxes. <br /> <br />All one needs to have is a basic understanding of ecomomics to understand that new taxation does not create positive or neutral implications on GDP or Job Growth. If you make X adding VAT increases the cost of the goods you need. Without a reduction in state sales tax or income tax your income of X has reduced purchasing power. If X can no longer buy A, B, C goods, but only A and B. That means that there is overall less purchasing occurring. In turn that affects the businesses who either have to lower prices or reduce supply. In either scenario, there is an effect on the job market and on the tax revenue since VAT is a consumer driven tax. <br /> <br />There are numerous articles on VAT implications. This thread is not a discussion about VAT in general or in lieu. It was a discussion about the VAT on top of our already existing taxation schemes. <br /> <br />The arguement in this thread is all over the place. First, people claiming that VAT is not in discussion because it was RIGHT WING. Now, it is that VAT is fine.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue, Dec 1 2009, 1:11 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>publius wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">UM..................A VAT is nothing more than a sales tax. <br />Thank You.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Thank you for this post. The strange irony of these posts is that a certain group within the conservative movement has decided to demonize a value added tax. The irony is that traditionally VAT's have been opposed by liberals, who correctly identify it as a particularly regressive taxing format. <br /> <br />In fact many conservatives have advocated the abolition of the progressive income tax and it's replacement with a VAT. Morever, I am unaware of any economic analysis linking VAT's to low growth rates. Interestingly, the quoted articles use cite no professional economic analysis linking VAT's to low growth rates leading one to think such articles do not exist. <br /> <br />Look, one can be for or against health care plans for a variety of reasons. One can be stridently against healthcare plans to do a belief that it will cause taxes to rise. However, to demonize a value added tax is hyperbole at best and propaganda at worst.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>publius</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Tue, Dec 1 2009, 11:27 am EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: Value Added Tax Hidden in Health Reform</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">UM..................A VAT is nothing more than a sales tax. <br />Thank You.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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