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[quote="Guest"]So which party are the fiscal consevratives again? Note that 2008, is only through September and doesn't even include all of Bush's bail-outs. And look at the first column which is the sum total of all debt from George Washington until Ford! [img]http://www.lafn.org/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.jpg[/img][/quote]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%" class="forumline"> <tr> <th class="thCornerL" width="22%" height="26">Author</th> <th class="thCornerR">Message</th> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Mar 13 2009, 7:59 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">The president's power is so minimal that it doesn't matter. It's how congress operates and no matter the regulation the companies will find loopholes as no senator in either party will pass meaningful legislation. Look at Frank denying Greenspan the ability to review Fannie Mae under Bush or the Rep Congress under Clinton passing deregulation laws in banking. <br /> <br />However, even more impactful to us personally is our state and local government. Say what you will, but my taxes are to me the most important aspect and on a federal level I've been stable, yet NJ and our town taxes me more. As long as I feel the federal government is protecting me and not going after every penny I make then I am okay. In NJ, I feel my town is under attack (COAH), my wallet is being picked (property taxes continue to rise, deductions are eliminated or reduced, school funding decreases from the past, and corruption affecting my taxes...) and there is no support.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Mar 13 2009, 7:30 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I fear for the future of our country.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />At any given time, someone is "fearing" for their counrty. A LOT of people did for the last 8 years. Its amazing how none of the people, from Cranbury locals to Radio Rush who said they'd move out of the counrty if Obama was elected have done so. Just as none of those who threatened to so so when Bush was elected did... <br /> <br />And yet, life goes on.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Mar 13 2009, 6:19 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I fear for the future of our country.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>publius</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Mar 13 2009, 9:54 am EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">The only difference is that the gop like to spend on "defense" (wink wink nudge nudge) and they like to give money to those who ALREADY HAVE money. <br />The democrats like to spread it around a bit and make sure that everyone gets a piece of the pie. <br />The trick is to avoid the two extremes!!!!!!!!!!! <br /> <br />Giving money to rich people is silly and doesn't make sense. <br />Dropping money out of airplanes over major cities is just as dumb. <br /> <br />There has to be a balance. It's called PRAGMATISM. <br />We ARE a market-driven economy.......BUT.......we do need SOME government sponsored programs to make society function. <br />Remember a thing called PUBLIC EDUCATION????????????? <br />I know that it sounds Communist/Socialist, but, it may be the one thing that America did which has made it such a successful nation!!!!!!!!!! <br />A progressive tax system and unions helped to build a middle-class. It's awfully hard to get tax money from poor people..........dontcha think???????????????? <br />The next thing will have to be some form of Universal healthcare system. Every industrialized nation has a plan.........um........except us. It WILL be neccessary for us to compete in the 21st century. <br />Unless you want to go back to the bush admin. which espoused 19th century industries like railroads, coal and oil!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <br />HUZZAH for the second guilded age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <br />Mark Twain must be cackling in his grave.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Mar 13 2009, 9:37 am EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Funny how when the Republicans opposed the first bail out the Democrats attacked them and the Republicans were evil because they weren't helping those in need. Now, the first bail out is a Republican driven. What about all the people here yelling how the bail out was needed and the Republicans were being difficult.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Sorry, but it's a little soon to revise history. The first bail out was Bush's baby. True, Bush appealed to both parties in Congress to support it and it was mostly Dems that did. Even then, Republican leadership in Congress, which did support the bill too but failed to get a majority fo their members behind it, tried to blame its first failure on Dems for not getting enough support in their party behind it, which was the height of hypocracy. So the GOP wants it both ways. When trying to pass their President's bill, its all the dems fault if it doesn't and once it is passed its all the dems fault that it did...</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>joe the plumber</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Fri, Mar 13 2009, 9:21 am EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">The gop only dislike the bailout cuz they're not getting enough out of it! <br />Remember, with them it's ALWAYS party before nation!!!!!!!!!! <br />If you don't believe me, just listen or read what they say. <br />I'm not crazy about democrats either, but, when choosing the lesser of two evils...............they just seem ...............less evil. <br />They also lie and make up stuff a whole let better too.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Mar 12 2009, 5:49 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Funny how when the Republicans opposed the first bail out the Democrats attacked them and the Republicans were evil because they weren't helping those in need. Now, the first bail out is a Republican driven. What about all the people here yelling how the bail out was needed and the Republicans were being difficult.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Thu, Mar 12 2009, 4:36 pm EDT<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">So which party are the fiscal consevratives again? <br /> <br />Note that 2008, is only through September and doesn't even include all of Bush's bail-outs. And look at the first column which is the sum total of all debt from George Washington until Ford! <br /> <br /><img src="http://www.lafn.org/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.jpg" border="0" /></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br /> <br />Most 'Mericans vote according to how their parents voted and if there is ANY thought involved, the information comes from a TV commercial or some lunatic on the radio! <br />gop being the party of small government is just another myth that we live with. Like Washington and the cherry tree.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Mar 1 2009, 10:23 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Here is the first line from the CBO link posted above:"The 2008 deficit totaled $455 billion, roughly $17 billion more than the $438 billion estimated by CBO on October 7th." Please find that on your chart for me.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Mar 1 2009, 6:32 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Umm... yes. A factor of two in the most easily checked data point doesn't exactly give a lot of confidence in the rest of it. The point of this thread is that the stimulus bill and now the proposed budget are totally irresponsible. We are staring at a 1/3 increase in Federal government employees during the next fiscal year. That is the wrong answer no matter how many charts you post.</td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />There were two charts, from totally different sources and they are independently verifiable against data from at least 3 different U.S. agencies.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Mar 1 2009, 9:08 am EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">First, I don't think the stimulus bill was that bad, except for the federal mandates he included if you accept the money. He should have offered unemployment benefit support to the states regardless of how their plans run today for example. Then there would be no politicking around non-acceptance and the people who wanted help get help. He needed to do something. However, the first stimulus bill while signed by Bush was really a Democrat push through as well. We're all blaming Bush and the Republicans, but when the Republicans balked at the first bill it was the Democrats and the Democrat supporters here on this board calling them irresponsible for not passing the first bill the first time. <br /> <br />So we Democrats can't have it both ways if we want people to take us seriously. We have to admit when we're wrong (first bill) and also admit when we're right. Not looking to blame others first.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sun, Mar 1 2009, 8:46 am EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">Umm... yes. A factor of two in the most easily checked data point doesn't exactly give a lot of confidence in the rest of it. The point of this thread is that the stimulus bill and now the proposed budget are totally irresponsible. We are staring at a 1/3 increase in Federal government employees during the next fiscal year. That is the wrong answer no matter how many charts you post.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat, Feb 28 2009, 8:44 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I guess the guy that draws the chart can make it say anything he wants. Interesting that the arrow by Ford points up while the second year is less than the first. Also interesting that the CBO reported the 2008 deficit as $455 Billion while your charts shows over a trillion. Here's the link to the CBO: <a href="http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=184" target="_blank">http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=184</a></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Are you seriously trying to challenge the chart as manipulated? Come on, you can do better than that. The data is widely available. Argue the reason but don't waste time trying to challenge reality. <br /> <br />I'm only guessing on the delta between this (and other charts0 versus the CBO deficit, but I suspect it has to do with deficit versus increase to the debt. I believe Clinton actually had a surplus at one point but this still shows a small debt increase. It's probably interest on the debt that is not counted in the deficit.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat, Feb 28 2009, 8:43 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody"></span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Guest wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">I guess the guy that draws the chart can make it say anything he wants. Interesting that the arrow by Ford points up while the second year is less than the first. Also interesting that the CBO reported the 2008 deficit as $455 Billion while your charts shows over a trillion. Here's the link to the CBO: <a href="http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=184" target="_blank">http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=184</a></td> </tr></table><span class="postbody"> <br /> <br />Are you seriously trying to challenge the chart as manipulated? Come on, you can do better than that. The data is widely available. Argue the reason but don't waste time trying to challenge reality. <br /> <br />I'm only guessing on the delta between this (and other charts0 versus the CBO deficit, but I suspect it has to do with deficit versus increase to the debt. I believe Clinton actually had a surplus at one point but this still shows a small debt increase. It's probably interest on the debt that is not counted in the deficit.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row1"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row1" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat, Feb 28 2009, 8:07 pm EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I guess the guy that draws the chart can make it say anything he wants. Interesting that the arrow by Ford points up while the second year is less than the first. Also interesting that the CBO reported the 2008 deficit as $455 Billion while your charts shows over a trillion. Here's the link to the CBO: <a href="http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=184" target="_blank">http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=184</a></span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="22%" align="left" valign="top" class="row2"><span class="name"><a name=""></a><b>Guest</b></span></td> <td class="row2" height="28" valign="top"><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"> <tr> <td width="100%"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost.gif" width="12" height="9" alt="Post" title="Post" border="0" /><span class="postdetails">Posted: Sat, Feb 28 2009, 7:55 am EST<span class="gen"> </span> Post subject: Re: "Stimulus" Bill</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><hr /></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2"><span class="postbody">I don't disagree with the picture. However, this is not a Republican issue a much as itis a Presidential Rep. issue. If we look at our own state and Corzine, McGreevy, etc.. we see massive spending by the Democrats including mandates like COAH or the forced library spending or the schools program that is full of graft. Even our own TC is spend thrift. <br /> <br />The issue is not Republican across all phases of government. I will never vote Democrat at the local and state level, but I do in the Presidential election.</span></td> </tr> </table></td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" height="1" class="spaceRow"><img src="templates/subSilver/images/spacer.gif" alt="" width="1" height="1" /></td> </tr> </table>
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