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wcody
Joined: Tue, Mar 18 2008, 9:49 am EDT Posts: 126 Location: Cranbury, NJ
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Posted: Wed, Jun 1 2011, 9:13 pm EDT Post subject: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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As some of you may be aware, the Township Committee is considering creating an ordinance for mandatory shoveling of one’s sidewalks with 24 hours of a storm. This is a safety issue that really became apparent with this recent winter. The ordinance could be for all streets in town or for major roads only. The ordinance could fine those that do not shovel or have the resident pay the cost if the town is forced to shovel the sidewalk. We had a preliminary discussion last meeting and will have an open hearing at the meeting of June 27. No decisions have been made and if we were going to do something, details would need to be worked out. I would like to solicit feedback of residents on this topic. Posts here would be great (named posts vs. anonymous posts are better) and if you don’t feel comfortable posting your thoughts on a public forum, you are welcome to email your thoughts to me at wcody@alum.mit.edu as well as other members of TC.
The Cranbury Press did a nice summary of the meeting:
CRANBURY: Officials discuss enacting snow removal lwa
DATE POSTED: Friday, May 27, 2011 8:06 AM EDT
By DAvid Kilby, Staff Writer
CRANBURY — After record-breaking amounts of snow this winter, the Cranbury Township Committee has decided to consider passing an ordinance that would require snow removal from sidewalks.
A number of residents and businesses have raised concerns about sidewalks not being shoveled, forcing some people to walk on the streets.
The committee discussed what other towns in the area have done in regard to snow ordinances, but also noticed the uniqueness of Cranbury.
The danger of cars parking on Main Street during a snowstorm also was discussed, and the committee considered possibly designating all of Main Street as a snow route, which would make parking there forbidden after a large snowfall.
The committee still is discussing the details of this and other tentative parameters for the ordinance, and committee members emphasized they want to get the public involved in the discussion.
Regarding the possible snow route, Committeeman Dan Mulligan said, “It’s a good conversation to be having because now we’re looking at alternate parking. We’re going to have to give an alternative if we pass the ordinance.”
Rachel Doobrah, township attorney, said she was surprised Cranbury didn’t already have a snow-shoveling ordinance and said it is the only town she knows of that doesn’t have one.
She said Plainsboro requires all property owners to shovel the sidewalks adjacent to their property 24 hours after a snowfall.
Mayor Win Cody said that would be especially difficult for Cranbury residents who live on street corners where snow banks can reach up to 10 feet after bad storms once snowplows pile their snow there.
Mr. Mulligan said New Jersey has no law requiring the shoveling of sidewalks, but it does have a law requiring the maintenance of sidewalks after they’re shoveled.
Thus, if an owner shovels a sidewalk, as required by ordinance, and ice forms after he shovels, he may be liable if someone slips on the ice. But he wouldn’t have been liable if he weren’t required to shovel the sidewalk in the first place.
The committee members and members of the public also mentioned Cranbury is in a unique situation because it has a few developments with sidewalks that are hardly ever used like those in Shadow Oaks.
So the committee discussed if the ordinance should apply to all Cranbury residents.
”I think it has to be all or nothing,” Committeeman Jay Taylor said.
”The businesses are most likely to be ticketed,” said Ms. Doobrah. “But they are also most likely to clear their sidewalks because they want customers.”
(click below for the rest of the article)
http://www.centraljersey.com/articles/2011/06/01/cranbury_press/news/doc4dde7da1130e5539836422.txt |
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Peter M. Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 8:52 am EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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I support an ordinance, every former town I lived in had one and unfortunately without it I don't think people shovel their walk. It could be that they are lazy, don't care or just don't feel it necessary. I live in Shadow Oaks and have a young child. Few shovel their walks. I don't like walking in the street with a stroller in good weather, bad weather is more dangerous. When we walk in town most are shoveled.
Also, as my child starts school walking to the bus stop will be key and I teach not walking in the street. To say now walk in the street is counter to my teachings to stay out of the street. I don't think young children understand that walking in a street in our neighborhood is fine, but walking on Main St. or Old Trenton rd is dangerous.
Also, I don't see how we could do it for one area and not for all. Just my two cents.
Thank you Mr. Cody for soliciting feedback. |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 9:31 am EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Thanks for soliciting feedback.
The devil is in the details. I'm not sure 24 hours is enough time. 24 hours from when? The start? The end? Who determines this? How are disputes handled? What if someone claims to have shoveled mid-storm before more snow fell? It seems too fuzzy.
More importanly, what if people are away for the weekend? What about older people who rely on someone else? It seems we are going to punish a number of well meaning people as a result of a few bad neighbors. Plus, don't all fines go to plainsboro? Why would we create a new revenue stream for them?
I would however, support a system where to Twp shovels as necessary after a reasonable period of time and then bills the property owner. |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 10:36 am EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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All of these "issues," 24 hours not being long enough, what if people are away, what is people are elderly and can't do it, what if they start and there's more snow, would be true of any Township and yet a vast majority of them have similar ordinances and they work fine. The Township attorney at the meeting couldn’t recall another Township she knew that didn’t have a snow removal policy.
Home ownership has many responsibilities that require either effort or money. This is not unique. For people who can’t do it themselves or can’t get a neighbor to, they will need to accept the responsibility of hiring a service. This goes on all over the state, and other states. As for practical enforcement, it works fine elsewhere. The police don’t invest a lot of time going around ticketing every single person exactly 24 hours later. They typically wait until either someone has complained or they observe particular abuse, which is usually far after 24 hours, and spot enforce. But for those that argue that spot enforcement is unfair or bad public policy, then I guess you don’t believe in any traffic laws because they are all spot enforced. Like traffic laws spot enforcement works fine as both a general deterrent against abuse and as a means for the police to have a basis for enforcement when abuse is obvious. This is our Town and our police force issuing the tickets. I highly doubt they will be unsympathetic to case-by-case special circumstances.
Ultimately this is a safety issue. I, like many others, have repeatedly experienced this first hand, walking on Main Street or through Shadow Oaks. When walking Main Street, my kids have to leave the sidewalk and walk into the road and due to all the snow banks from the street clearing; they have to go precariously far into the street where they are narrowing missed by cars. All it takes is a car skidding for far worse to result. The fact is a majority of people do on Main do the right thing, but those who don’t consistently don’t and create the safety hazard for everyone. With snow falls like this winter that condition persisted for weeks at a time. Shadow Oaks is even worse. Some people have convinced themselves that “we don’t need to clear our sidewalks because we have wide streets and everyone can just walk in them. But as many parents there know, this is not advisable or safe for their kids.
Transferring the responsibility to the Township seems unrealistic and unreasonable, and I suspect would also effective leave the Township open for liability issues when some accident ensues from an uncleared sidewalk. This is a property owner’s responsibility. What makes Cranbury believe that we are someone unique in New Jersey, that we don’t need a public safety policy that almost everyone else accepts as reasonable? |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 10:42 am EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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As for the fees going to Plainsboro, that's true of any ticket or court-required appearance. Are you suggesting then we shouldn't have traffic laws? The Township lets Plainsboro keep the fees to offset the cost of maintaining a court. It's silly to suggest that if we don't get the fees we shouldn't have laws. No one is proposing this as a way to raise revenue but as a public safety matter. |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 3:11 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Why not make it 48 hrs and so long as the resident showed proof of being away then the monetary fine would not apply.
It seems to me that shoveling is something that comes with buying a house. If the ordinance has the out to help those who were truly away from being penalized then I don't see an issue. Most people have snow blowers or pay someone anyway. Very few actually manually shovel walks.
If the town had an ordinance most people would be shoveling, because we don't people have the excuse not to do it. Most people move into town and shovel their walk because it's what they are used to. Only when they see neighbors not doing it or realize there is no legal reason then we stop doing it. It seems we forget that being good neighbors means taking care of one's property.
I think we should be looking at ways to reduce the government expenses. Increasing staff as we would need to do to be private sidewalk shovelers is not what we want to do we should not be a landscaping business. |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 3:28 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Last winter, my two neighbors on each side of my house didn't shovel theirs, not even once. When I was shoveling mine, I kept wondering the purpose of doing it... |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 3:38 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Guest wrote: | Last winter, my two neighbors on each side of my house didn't shovel theirs, not even once. When I was shoveling mine, I kept wondering the purpose of doing it... |
because you are a good, and responsible person.
I am all for the new ordinance ! |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 4:16 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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We just learned from a neighbor that a township ordinance has been proposed that would require homeowners to shovel their sidewalks within a certain period after a snowfall. In the past few years, we've scaled back our work, and my wife and I spend some time in the winter down south. This ordinance could be very costly for us and anyone else who would have to hire help every time it snowed heavily.
We have lived in Cranbury Estates on Ryan Road for many years. To my knowledge, none of my neighbors has ever complained about another neighbor not clearing his/her sidewalk, probably because sidewalks are rarely used in our neighborhood, winter or summer. In fact, this last winter, I believe only one household on Ryan Road cleared its sidewalk. Children play or ride their bikes in the street because there is so little traffic, and what traffic we have is slow. On the other hand, when we are here in the winter, we receive kind offers for help clearing our driveway, so we can get our car out, from neighbors who own snowblowers, and that is much appreciated.
We can understand the need for requiring sidewalks to be cleared in areas with heavy traffic, or those streets adjacent to main thoroughfares (e.g., Main St, Plainsboro Rd). It's essential for children to stay safe while walking to school, and for postal delivery as well. But why not pass an ordinance that takes into account the specific needs of different neighborhoods? |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 4:18 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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An earlier poster made a good point. What if you are out of town. This past year we had a massive snowstorm the day after Christmas. What if you were visiting Grandma for Christmas and became snowed in. When you returned to Cranbury 3 days later would you have 3 tickets? |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 4:48 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Guest wrote: | An earlier poster made a good point. What if you are out of town. This past year we had a massive snowstorm the day after Christmas. What if you were visiting Grandma for Christmas and became snowed in. When you returned to Cranbury 3 days later would you have 3 tickets? |
First of all, who said anything about getting a new ticket each day? Second, people all over the tri-state area have to deal with this. You make arrangements. When I was in a different town we traded responsibilities with the neighbors when traveling and when that didn't work out had a service setup that would have done it. Just part of the responsibility of owning a home. People in most of the state had to deal with this after last Christimas and the world didn't come to an end. And as another poster noted, in practice the police in our town are going to be sympathetic to circumstances. This is about putting a law on the books to give them authority to go after the real abusers, the people who hadn't cleared their sidewalks two weeks after storms. There is plenty of precedent to show that our PD are not "ticket happy" as a rule and they aren't looking to fill a quota. |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 6:49 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Guest wrote: | We just learned from a neighbor that a township ordinance has been proposed that would require homeowners to shovel their sidewalks within a certain period after a snowfall. In the past few years, we've scaled back our work, and my wife and I spend some time in the winter down south. This ordinance could be very costly for us and anyone else who would have to hire help every time it snowed heavily.
We have lived in Cranbury Estates on Ryan Road for many years. To my knowledge, none of my neighbors has ever complained about another neighbor not clearing his/her sidewalk, probably because sidewalks are rarely used in our neighborhood, winter or summer. In fact, this last winter, I believe only one household on Ryan Road cleared its sidewalk. Children play or ride their bikes in the street because there is so little traffic, and what traffic we have is slow. On the other hand, when we are here in the winter, we receive kind offers for help clearing our driveway, so we can get our car out, from neighbors who own snowblowers, and that is much appreciated.
We can understand the need for requiring sidewalks to be cleared in areas with heavy traffic, or those streets adjacent to main thoroughfares (e.g., Main St, Plainsboro Rd). It's essential for children to stay safe while walking to school, and for postal delivery as well. But why not pass an ordinance that takes into account the specific needs of different neighborhoods? |
With all due respect you're the type of person that is causing the ordinance to be discussed. You admit that you leave the area and make no arrangements- out of sight out of mind. That leaves your neighbors to contend with a snow covered side walk.
Ryan Rd. and the Estates is a walking neighborhood with kids walking to school and a number of cars going faster than they should. To say the kids should stick to the streets because you're enjoying the warm weather elsewhere is a bit selfish.
Yes, it could be costly to you, but again as was stated earlier if the ordinance states you can prove you were away and not able then you'd be exempt anyway.
In any other town you'd be dealing with it and being able to show you were away would not exempt you from a fine. In Cranbury because it has been self policing leaving neighbors to do the right thing you chose to save the money and not to do it.
This is what bothers me. I'd prefer not to have an ordinance, but it seems that people without one in place will continue to leave the sidewalks unshoveled ignoring the right thing and putting kids in danger. |
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Guest
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Posted: Thu, Jun 2 2011, 11:13 pm EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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I love it. This kind of crap comes up every now and them from some stick in the mud who has lived in Cranbury for all of 5 minutes and thinks we need a new law because he has somehow been minorly inconvenienced. My advice... Knock it off. Get your lilly ass off the couch and go talk to your neighbor. Yes, actually talk to your neighbor. We don't need a law, we need common sense. If your neighbor doesn't shovel and you don't like it, talk to your neighbor. Don't go making a bunch of stupid new rules because you are afraid to talk to your neighbor. And just because other towns have stupid rules for stupid people doesn't mean we need stupid rules in Cranbury. Man up, Sally! Go talk to your neighbor! |
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Guest
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Posted: Fri, Jun 3 2011, 12:05 am EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Guest wrote: | Guest wrote: | An earlier poster made a good point. What if you are out of town. This past year we had a massive snowstorm the day after Christmas. What if you were visiting Grandma for Christmas and became snowed in. When you returned to Cranbury 3 days later would you have 3 tickets? |
First of all, who said anything about getting a new ticket each day? Second, people all over the tri-state area have to deal with this. You make arrangements. When I was in a different town we traded responsibilities with the neighbors when traveling and when that didn't work out had a service setup that would have done it. Just part of the responsibility of owning a home. People in most of the state had to deal with this after last Christimas and the world didn't come to an end. And as another poster noted, in practice the police in our town are going to be sympathetic to circumstances. This is about putting a law on the books to give them authority to go after the real abusers, the people who hadn't cleared their sidewalks two weeks after storms. There is plenty of precedent to show that our PD are not "ticket happy" as a rule and they aren't looking to fill a quota. |
Slow down sparky. If an ordinance is being written, it can be written in a number of ways. It certainly could be a ticket every day one is in non-compliance. I would suggest it should not.
Read the post more carefully. The proposal is that you are snowed in at Grandma's house the day after Christmas. You were planning to be there 48 hours not 5 days. How would one "make arrangements"
The devil is in the details on this. I am trying to point out the problems in writing the ordinance. You seem to be merely a cheerleader for one side. I want us to try to do this thing correctly. |
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Guest
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Posted: Fri, Jun 3 2011, 6:02 am EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Guest wrote: | Guest wrote: | Guest wrote: | An earlier poster made a good point. What if you are out of town. This past year we had a massive snowstorm the day after Christmas. What if you were visiting Grandma for Christmas and became snowed in. When you returned to Cranbury 3 days later would you have 3 tickets? |
First of all, who said anything about getting a new ticket each day? Second, people all over the tri-state area have to deal with this. You make arrangements. When I was in a different town we traded responsibilities with the neighbors when traveling and when that didn't work out had a service setup that would have done it. Just part of the responsibility of owning a home. People in most of the state had to deal with this after last Christimas and the world didn't come to an end. And as another poster noted, in practice the police in our town are going to be sympathetic to circumstances. This is about putting a law on the books to give them authority to go after the real abusers, the people who hadn't cleared their sidewalks two weeks after storms. There is plenty of precedent to show that our PD are not "ticket happy" as a rule and they aren't looking to fill a quota. |
Slow down sparky. If an ordinance is being written, it can be written in a number of ways. It certainly could be a ticket every day one is in non-compliance. I would suggest it should not.
Read the post more carefully. The proposal is that you are snowed in at Grandma's house the day after Christmas. You were planning to be there 48 hours not 5 days. How would one "make arrangements"
The devil is in the details on this. I am trying to point out the problems in writing the ordinance. You seem to be merely a cheerleader for one side. I want us to try to do this thing correctly. |
I'm not the one who has been responding. But I'd say call a couple of neighbors. Someone is bound to be home and able to help. |
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Guest
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Posted: Fri, Jun 3 2011, 6:08 am EDT Post subject: Re: Sidewalk shoveling snow removal ordinance? |
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Guest wrote: | I love it. This kind of crap comes up every now and them from some stick in the mud who has lived in Cranbury for all of 5 minutes and thinks we need a new law because he has somehow been minorly inconvenienced. My advice... Knock it off. Get your lilly ass off the couch and go talk to your neighbor. Yes, actually talk to your neighbor. We don't need a law, we need common sense. If your neighbor doesn't shovel and you don't like it, talk to your neighbor. Don't go making a bunch of stupid new rules because you are afraid to talk to your neighbor. And just because other towns have stupid rules for stupid people doesn't mean we need stupid rules in Cranbury. Man up, Sally! Go talk to your neighbor! |
Actually, from the TC meeting last Monday those who are speaking out asking for it are long timers in town. Some longer residents than I am and I am over 40. The problem seems to be new comers. The old timers tend to shovel their walks. The new comers come in see some neighbors don't then suddenly realize their is no ordinance and then stop. It's why the developments where most new people live are the biggest issue. If the new comers (and some old timers) did shovel then there would be no reason to have a law on the books. It all stems from people not being neighborly. Instead of arguing for or against a law, why aren't people complaining that the law is because of people not doing the right thing in the first place? That's what has caused people to complain. Now, those opposed are those same ones who don't shovel today and want to justify their lack of being neighborly- I am away all winter so who cares about my neighbors, my neighbors don't shovel why should I, etc...People are trying to fight for the right to not to do the right thing and excuse themselves for not doing it. |
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